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SirFizzyWo
08-26-2015, 09:46 AM
so i just tried playing as Ninjette after the newest patch. it appears her Shadow Stalker passive only applies to basic attacks and not her skills.

Question: Is this intended, or is it still bugged for skill damage?

if the answer is yes, this is intended, then i have to say that compared to the other champs (aside from Xavilla who mostly only suffers from a lack of workouts), she is vastly underwhelming. i would ask the developers to consider extending the passive bonus to her skills as well. she has neither the hit points nor armour to last long in team fights, and while one of those can be rectified, the other will be gimped. this leads me to believe Ninjette is intended as an Assassin/Nuker playstyle, but without a crit on her skills, her ability as a Nuker is kind of how you say "womp womp".

im curious if a dev would be so kind as to help explain whether this is intended or not, and maybe give insight as to why she is designed the way she is, so that we (the players) can have a better understanding of how she fits into a team setting, and how the dev team envisioned us playing as her.

J_MTN
08-26-2015, 11:56 AM
Hm. If it is indeed intentional, then I take back what I said about her squishiness being okay. I assumed it also applied to skills as well.

Kerpo
08-26-2015, 01:29 PM
womp womp indeed

shadowxros
08-26-2015, 06:11 PM
Confirmed via twitter it is only supposed to crit on basic.

https://twitter.com/PlayTGT/status/636625114793156608

13igTyme
08-26-2015, 07:32 PM
Aren't there badges that work on crit. I could see those bing of use, and with her natural 10% chance it's easy to buff that into the 30's or 40's.

SirFizzyWo
08-26-2015, 07:37 PM
well......that is super disappointing. anyways, thanks for the heads up shadow. i dont use twitter or most social media, so i wouldnt have seen this otherwise. kind of disappointing (although, i guess understandable) they post stuff like that on social media rather than their own forums though.

well this brings up the question, are skills intended to be able to crit?

edit: @13igTyme
there are workouts, but the trade off is movement speed, which in her case means she cant escape if things get hairy. your basically locked into the fight if you dont "kill'em in one hit". something that is certainly not her specialty. not even mentioning, good luck catching them, even with her chain.

13igTyme
08-26-2015, 07:41 PM
well......that is super disappointing. anyways, thanks for the heads up shadow. i dont use twitter or most social media, so i wouldnt have seen this otherwise. kind of disappointing (although, i guess understandable) they post stuff like that on social media rather than their own forums though.

well this brings up the question, are skills intended to be able to crit?

On there own a skill should crit. I could see why they don't want Her skill to always crit out of stealth, 600 damage is a lot for a single hit.

SirFizzyWo
08-26-2015, 07:45 PM
@13igTyme

what im asking is are they intended to though, currently they do, but if she isnt intended to get a skill crit with her crit passive, it makes me wonder if skill crits are something that was ever intended, or if basic attacks were the only thing that was ever meant to crit. if skills are meant to crit, her passive not allowing her to doesnt make alot of sense. if they are, then why is her passive being excluded? high crit builds already crit like one in 3 skill uses, her getting an automatic one on her extremely energy costly skills doesnt seem unfair. would cost a total of 1100 energy just to land one crit, when others are doing it 3 or 4 times for 400 a pop.

600 is not alot when you consider most champs that have high damage res and other champs that do about that same amount of damage, with more sustain. Ace is the first that springs to mind, with stuns, slows, and knockback, while also doing strong damage AND having much more hitpoints. she just doesnt seem as good now. probably get moved to Xavilla tier in the current meta.

edited for clarity. sorry 13igTyme

13igTyme
08-26-2015, 07:50 PM
@13igTyme
not when you consider other champs that do about that same amount of damage, with more sustain. Ace is the first that springs to mind, with stuns, slows, and knockback, while also doing strong damage AND having much more hitpoints. she just doesnt seem as good now. probably get moved to Xavilla tier in the current meta.

Ace's three skills do 350, 200, and 450 damage, all of which is elemental, which most champs have higher of. Non of is attacks do 600 damage.

EDIT: Only Khan, Kilowatt, and Leatherhead come close with 500 damage. Rook, if only one enemy is in range can do 600, but bolts can't be aimed and if there is more than one person in range it's 300 for two people.

SirFizzyWo
08-26-2015, 08:00 PM
@13igTyme
i want to point out that 450 is still close to 600, and in terms of damage res most champs are only 2 to 6% (could be off by a few percent) different in elemental res vs phys res. why we even have two types of res when the numbers are so close is kinda of silly to me. theres only two workouts that effect those numbers, and it effects BOTH numbers in equal amounts. just strange to me. but i digress....

either way, i think you are missing the point. the point is all of those characters have some sort of sustain compared to her, and all also do relatively high damage.

13igTyme
08-26-2015, 08:32 PM
@13igTyme
i want to point out that 450 is still close to 600, and in terms of damage res most champs are only 2 to 6% (could be off by a few percent) different in elemental res vs phys res. why we even have two types of res when the numbers are so close is kinda of silly to me. theres only two workouts that effect those numbers, and it effects BOTH numbers in equal amounts. just strange to me. but i digress....

either way, i think you are missing the point. the point is all of those characters have some sort of sustain compared to her, and all also do relatively high damage.

When it comes to damage numbers for any MMO, RPG, MOBA, ect. 450 is not close to 600. 450 is 75% as effective as 600. I'm not saying she is balance, not at all. But 600 is still the highest attack in the game right now. Only two champions can do that. Rook in a 1v1 and Ninjette in an AOE cone.

SirFizzyWo
08-26-2015, 09:44 PM
@13igTyme
ok. i guess i can see your point, but factoring in cooldowns and energy costs her 600 just doesnt stack with other champs. either way, this isnt the discussion. we are discussing damage vs long term survivability.

damage does you zero good if you cant live to deliver it OR deliver it effectively (just like the aforementioned MMO's, RPG's, MOBA's, etc.) which she (thanks to shadows confirmation) cant do in a viable fashion.

with girded being a current top tier meta badge, a guaranteed critical skill attack evens the odds and forces a possible change in meta. if she still wants to be a girded counter, she has to build (relatively) full crit, something already being done by other champs (and more effectively within reason thanks to higher survivability).

i personally dont think she needs a HP buff or any such fix, i think she just needs to have her passive changed to effect her skills (unless, of course, skills ARENT meant to crit in the first place, in which case we just need to see other skills made to not crit)

13igTyme
08-26-2015, 09:50 PM
I Honestly think the bigger issue is that you can get knocked out of invisibility by anything. I've put a dot on a ninjette and watch the first tick of damage bring them out of stealth. You can get knocked out with an AOE cone attack, a random attack, etc.

SirFizzyWo
08-26-2015, 09:57 PM
@13igTyme
that is a true point that i also wanted to bring up. i can definately agree with you on that, but it was something i was saving for another topic dedicated to stealth as a whole, and not just how it applies to Ninjette, but to all champs across the board.

still, i would like a devs opinion on the current topic of whether skills are intended to crit, and why her skills are left out of the passive if they are intended to crit. (IF they deem this topic worthy enough that is)

13igTyme
08-26-2015, 10:28 PM
@13igTyme
that is a true point that i also wanted to bring up. i can definately agree with you on that, but it was something i was saving for another topic dedicated to stealth as a whole, and not just how it applies to Ninjette, but to all champs across the board.

still, i would like a devs opinion on the current topic of whether skills are intended to crit, and why her skills are left out of the passive if they are intended to crit. (IF they deem this topic worthy enough that is)

Like I said, Devs don't make games where skill don't crit. Why have crit chance and crit damage? Girded would be OP as hell if skills didn't crit.

SirFizzyWo
08-26-2015, 10:55 PM
@13igTyme
well i would normally agree with you on that except i was informed today that most MOBA's actually DO NOT feature skills that crit (based on crit chance), and while this isnt a "traditional" MOBA, it IS a MOBA.

as for girded being OP, this is kind of my point in a round about way. Girded is the exact reason why i believe her passive should indeed effect her skills, and if it doesnt, then i believe all skills should be disallowed to crit and then we can have a discussion about Girded. As of now people are using crit skills to counter Girded, BUT THATS THE ONLY METHOD and this shouldnt be the case.

Ninjette has the potential to be an assurance as to how to deal with Girded, something that even a new(ish) player can pick up and do so that LvL 30 players arent just wiping the floor with brand new players. Leaving her squishy is fine, but let her have full potential.

edit: i just want to note that i use caps to denote emphasis, not yell. this is just a friendly discussion and i dont want anyone to think otherwise.

Ace
08-27-2015, 12:16 AM
Imagine a ninjette with bowling and a guaranteed crit on her skills. 2400 damage from a single ability and she just came out of stealth? No thanks, and machine gun beats girded, but machine gun beats anything really.

SirFizzyWo
08-27-2015, 12:54 AM
@Ace
yes. this is exactly my point. imagine that against an enemy with 50% reduction. 1200 damage (less if they have more defense), enough to actually damage a tank WITHOUT Machine Gun. Thats the key here. She does damage to the tank and maybe another tank or a group of tanks. the casters are still safe behind the tanks, or if she gets behind the tanks, she could possibly one shot the casters. it forces players to make decisions about playstyle. Now you have to wonder if you need someone on your team with the ability to see stealthed enemies easier. it helps bring team diversity, which is one of this player bases biggest complaints.

like i said, i just cant help but wonder about the possibilities it COULD bring. maybe im wrong, maybe it would lead to unhealthy gameplay. i dont think it would, but im just one guy thinking this, and it seems im alone in this thought, so maybe im wrong.

13igTyme
08-27-2015, 04:55 AM
@13igTyme
well i would normally agree with you on that except i was informed today that most MOBA's actually DO NOT feature skills that crit (based on crit chance), and while this isnt a "traditional" MOBA, it IS a MOBA.

as for girded being OP, this is kind of my point in a round about way. Girded is the exact reason why i believe her passive should indeed effect her skills, and if it doesnt, then i believe all skills should be disallowed to crit and then we can have a discussion about Girded. As of now people are using crit skills to counter Girded, BUT THATS THE ONLY METHOD and this shouldnt be the case.

Ninjette has the potential to be an assurance as to how to deal with Girded, something that even a new(ish) player can pick up and do so that LvL 30 players arent just wiping the floor with brand new players. Leaving her squishy is fine, but let her have full potential.

edit: i just want to note that i use caps to denote emphasis, not yell. this is just a friendly discussion and i dont want anyone to think otherwise.

If traditional MOBA games don't have skill criting, then I don't see the point in any crit change or damage. The basic attack will never be strong enough to kill someone, unless you use machine gun as mentioned. Plus even if you wanted to max out her basic attack with chin ups you'd be lowering her health even more.

J_MTN
08-27-2015, 07:36 AM
But 600 is still the highest attack in the game right now. Only two champions can do that. Rook in a 1v1 and Ninjette in an AOE cone.

I'd have to disagree. Take a look at Rending Claws. -80 Elemental Damage every second for ten seconds. That's -800! Then add on the initial 100 physical damage for a net 900 damage!

900 net damage potential at the cost of a mere 200 energy and 8 seconds of cool down.

That is 4.5 damage per energy spent. Nearly double that of any other attack in the game.

You may argue that it's just DoT. But the thing is, DoT is still damage, and it doesn't stop until all damage has been dealt. And of course, im not taking into account resistances.

13igTyme
08-27-2015, 11:44 AM
I'd have to disagree. Take a look at Rending Claws. -80 Elemental Damage every second for ten seconds. That's -800! Then add on the initial 100 physical damage for a net 900 damage!

900 net damage potential at the cost of a mere 200 energy and 8 seconds of cool down.

That is 4.5 damage per energy spent. Nearly double that of any other attack in the game.

You may argue that it's just DoT. But the thing is, DoT is still damage, and it doesn't stop until all damage has been dealt. And of course, im not taking into account resistances.

It's not the same mate. A dot can be mitigated much easier than a full burst hit. 800 damage over ten seconds seems like a lot if you add it all up, but you've got to realize your only taking 80 a second. I've fought countless nexi's 1v1 with rook and killed them, then just gone to grab health or have a team mate heal/shield me. So in theory 800 is a lot but it's really it's not. Burst can never be compared to dots, unless it's an MMO and you're talking about sustained DPS where you never run out of energy/power/mana/etc.

Think of it like this. If you were to go buy a car or a house, would you rather pay for all of it right then or over the course of 60 months? What seems easier for you to "Mitigate the damage" to your bank account/income?

Oracle
08-27-2015, 12:01 PM
Hello! To answer your question: yes, this only applies to Slicer. Her skills are left out of passive because a critical on blade flurry would be 1000–1200 damage out of stealth, and doing so would cause Ninjette to be unbalanced. We could definitely improve the wording on the description of Shadow Stalker to make this more clear. We apologize for any miscommunication with that. Hope this helps! Thanks, everyone, for the feedback!

Ace
08-27-2015, 12:21 PM
@Ace
yes. this is exactly my point. imagine that against an enemy with 50% reduction. 1200 damage (less if they have more defense), enough to actually damage a tank WITHOUT Machine Gun. Thats the key here. She does damage to the tank and maybe another tank or a group of tanks. the casters are still safe behind the tanks, or if she gets behind the tanks, she could possibly one shot the casters. it forces players to make decisions about playstyle. Now you have to wonder if you need someone on your team with the ability to see stealthed enemies easier. it helps bring team diversity, which is one of this player bases biggest complaints.


like i said, i just cant help but wonder about the possibilities it COULD bring. maybe im wrong, maybe it would lead to unhealthy gameplay. i dont think it would, but im just one guy thinking this, and it seems im alone in this thought, so maybe im wrong.

You're not suppose to do damage like that against a tank, it's a tank for a reason. Assassins in LoL and Dota are not 1 shotting tanks or taking 40% hp off in a single ability, they aren't even worried about them. What would stop me from getting to the squishy characters and 1 shotting them if I used my stealth. Besides getting damaged, there is no counter to stealth. Don't forget her grapple increases skill effectiveness by 50%, thats an insane amount of damage that can be done in 1 or 2 skills.

SirFizzyWo
08-27-2015, 02:03 PM
@13igTyme
thats exactly my point, if she cant get an auto crit on her skills, my question was are skills supposed to crit? most traditional ones dont allow skills to crit, which makes sense when thinking of balance of gameplay, but in a game where skills can ALREADY crit for 1000+ damage, her getting a guaranteed crit just doesnt seem as strong when you think of all the champs who are in fact, getting crits on skills regularly. the only way to reproduce this effect is by building crit up on her, which seems silly AS SHE COMES WITH A BUILT IN CRIT. 35% crit chance (her max) is about the same 30% crit chance (other champs average). its still about a 1 in 3 to crit with a skill. so its still 2400 damage, in an AoE, and 1/3 of the time from stealth. i just dont see the major difference.

as you said, damage from basic, cant even come close, and trying to just makes her even more fragile.

@Ace
there is a counter to stealth. there is a badge that makes it so you can see them easier and hitting them takes them out of stealth.

as for the comparison to LoL, that may be true, but the champs in LoL also have more than 3 skills and its not the (thus far in TGT) formulaic motto of 2 damage and 1 support skill (the exception BEING Ace LAWL). champs there have ults, utility weapons, and damage skills, HIGH damage skills in some cases. One bursting a champ to death is not uncommon there, which is why i said it could be so here.

@OGScheck
thank you for responding! so i take it that skills ARE meant to crit, just putting it on her passive was something yall think would be too strong....well its an odd decision to me, but if thats the law, thats the law. thanks again for responding!

Ace
08-27-2015, 05:08 PM
Well if you're using that badge, you've already lost lol. The point here is that a guaranteed crit on her skills would be too strong, no champ on LoL can 1 shot in a single skill that's not an ultimate unless they are EXTREMELY far ahead, I'm talking about level 18 to level 3, which never happens. Let me give you an example. Ninjette with full bowling workouts, her flurry deals 2400 damage in a crit to someone with no resistance which doesn't happen, now let's say the enemy has 50% resistances, pretty reasonable. Flurry now deals 1200. In a game, if I were to grapple someone which gives me 50% skill effectiveness, run away while they are stunned, stealth and come back to land a flurry, that's 1800 damage in 1 skill on a character with 50% resistances. Throw in the 4x crit damage badge and you're flurry does 4800 damage to 0 resistances, and that's WITHOUT the 50% skill effectiveness from grapple. A little strong don't ya think?

SirFizzyWo
08-27-2015, 09:29 PM
@Ace
as for having the badge, i disagree. i dont think people would see that badge as useless if she was able to crit from stealth using skills, which is why i said it would increase build variety and for teams, to ya know, stratagize. something like that on a tank so they can save the team from a stealthed nexi/ninjette sounds great.

as for her debuff, i believe thats on her flurry skill, and is applied after damage is dealt, so shes not getting that boost unless someone else debuffs first, which i will state is VERY likely.

what im not understanding is how her doing an automatic crit is an issue? how is a 1 in 3 crit of 2400 crit (full crit, no bowling) acceptable but a guaranteed 4800 crit(full bowling, no crit accept for a passive) isnt? a crit build version of her seems way more OP than a version of her where she gets 1 crit every 7 seconds (assuming she has energy). both of those numbers bring one shot potential. so why is one ok, but the other not?

the answer, i think, is that neither are ok. again, the devs spoke, so im kind of done with it, i just think its silly to say its ok for skills to crit and do massive damage, but its not ok for a champ whos specialty is crits, to not get one on her skills. all it does is make a champ that already is fragile, do less damage. but thats just T's & O's

DIDYOUSEEWHATIDIDTHER!?

Ace
08-27-2015, 10:16 PM
as for her debuff, i believe thats on her flurry skill, and is applied after damage is dealt, so shes not getting that boost unless someone else debuffs first, which i will state is VERY likely.

what im not understanding is how her doing an automatic crit is an issue? how is a 1 in 3 crit of 2400 crit (full crit, no bowling) acceptable but a guaranteed 4800 crit(full bowling, no crit accept for a passive) isnt? a crit build version of her seems way more OP than a version of her where she gets 1 crit every 7 seconds (assuming she has energy). both of those numbers bring one shot potential. so why is one ok, but the other not?

I never said anything about her debuff. I was talking about her grapple which is a stun and 50% skill effectiveness for 5 secs.


One build completely ****s on your movement to where you can't even catch up to slowed enemies, and the other takes your energy pooldown which means nothing when you run energy regen which isn't uncommon. If a guaranteed crit on an ability that can do up to 9600 damage when paired with grapple or any other skill effectiveness buff doesn't seem strong to you, then I just don't know what to tell ya man.

Emomiime
08-27-2015, 10:41 PM
Alright time for me to post yay! First off @13igTyme crit on basic attacks hurt and can kill. Example? I have a crit based rook. Due to her having decent crit (5% starting off i think?) and a crit weapon this is viable. I currently have a 23.5% crit chance. Due to my stun allowing me to hit the target freely I have a easy time landing hits and possible crits. On low resistance champions I can hit 5-600s and on tanky champs like khan 200-350. This allows me to do damage equal to abilities with autos thus making basic attacks strong enough to kill. I will have to side with skill crits would be too powerful. Again imagine on rook with my 23.5% crit chance with my dark bolts. If magically both were to crit i would effectively do 2400 damage (1200 damage each bolt do to Critical power) that cannot be blocked by girded. Ouch... thats not even talking about abilities that are aoe like platimus that can hit any and all targets within the radius. . This is also without the multiplier of bowling. Imagine ninjette with 100% spell damage doing 4.8k damage that cannot be blocked by girded.....(600x2= 1200. 1200x4=4.8k(Critical power) extremely un healthy for the game in general. However, what is also un healthy is the reduction of girded.

With resistances any attack or ability that hits 190-300 damage is quite healthy and acceptable. This allows tanks to be able to die and for squishys to feel umm squishy.I get this number based on the amount of health that people usually have while building defense/girded health builds. Anything below is bad damage anything above is super bursty and needs to be situational for a healthy game environment. Again girded glaring weakness is crits but spell crits doing way to much damage is ridiculous especially if Ninjette could crit with spells after every stealth. So a slight fix needs to be done with girded. So lets take ninjettes ability for example and see how it works against average people in order to find a healthy place for girded to be. 50% resistance I believe is fair guide to start with. 600= 300 damage now which is great reliable damage and does a debuff. I do think 325 dmg with girded is a healthy place for it to be so people with bowling don't get screwed but instead get their maximum potential damage against everyone.

SirFizzyWo
08-27-2015, 11:30 PM
@Ace
my apologies for the debuff/skill effectiveness mix up. that was all me. i forgot it has that buff on the grapple until a bit ago. also earlier my crit percents were way off. she caps at 30%, not 35% i dont know why i thought that it gave +5% per workout lol.

however, i also think you misunderstand. i AM saying that its strong. VERY strong. what i AM saying is that it seems unfair to restrict one, but not the other. in the case of her running a crit build, she has a grapple. one with a far enough range that she doesnt need to catch up (INB4: i said in an earlier post i didnt think she could catch up, even with her chain. i now know she CAN catch up, using her chain. that range is really far).

another thing i want to say is that honestly, i think that if her passive did effect her skills, it would still be less effective to build her towards bowling than crit, since lowering her energy cap really hurts her. im not so adamant about this working because i want to spec her this way, i just think its unfair to make her so weak without some sort of positive. as it stands right now, shes just squishy for the sake of squishyness.

Emomiime brings up a strong point in that the real culprit here is probably girded. i might not be saying its unfair if girded had a slightly higher damage cap. 325 seems reasonable, but i would probably lower it to 250, as honestly this seems like a better baseline that allows it to still be powerful/useful, and still allows us to chip away at tanks, though 325 might be the more reasonable number.

13igTyme
08-28-2015, 12:20 AM
Alright time for me to post yay! First off @13igTyme crit on basic attacks hurt and can kill. Example? I have a crit based rook. Due to her having decent crit (5% starting off i think?) and a crit weapon this is viable. I currently have a 23.5% crit chance. Due to my stun allowing me to hit the target freely I have a easy time landing hits and possible crits. On low resistance champions I can hit 5-600s and on tanky champs like khan 200-350. This allows me to do damage equal to abilities with autos thus making basic attacks strong enough to kill. I will have to side with skill crits would be too powerful. Again imagine on rook with my 23.5% crit chance with my dark bolts. If magically both were to crit i would effectively do 2400 damage (1200 damage each bolt do to Critical power) that cannot be blocked by girded. Ouch... thats not even talking about abilities that are aoe like platimus that can hit any and all targets within the radius. . This is also without the multiplier of bowling. Imagine ninjette with 100% spell damage doing 4.8k damage that cannot be blocked by girded.....(600x2= 1200. 1200x4=4.8k(Critical power) extremely un healthy for the game in general. However, what is also un healthy is the reduction of girded.

With resistances any attack or ability that hits 190-300 damage is quite healthy and acceptable. This allows tanks to be able to die and for squishys to feel umm squishy.I get this number based on the amount of health that people usually have while building defense/girded health builds. Anything below is bad damage anything above is super bursty and needs to be situational for a healthy game environment. Again girded glaring weakness is crits but spell crits doing way to much damage is ridiculous especially if Ninjette could crit with spells after every stealth. So a slight fix needs to be done with girded. So lets take ninjettes ability for example and see how it works against average people in order to find a healthy place for girded to be. 50% resistance I believe is fair guide to start with. 600= 300 damage now which is great reliable damage and does a debuff. I do think 325 dmg with girded is a healthy place for it to be so people with bowling don't get screwed but instead get their maximum potential damage against everyone.

That's fine but you'd be glass. I've played against high Rate of Fire Rooks/ Crit Rooks/ Stun rooks/ etc. I've never played anyone with my build for rook. This is what happens when I play a Rate or fire Rook's or Crit Rook's:Teleport stun them(Optional), use basic attack to lower defense, cast bolt 800-1000 damage, use basic attack one or twice to kill. The entire fight last 3-5 seconds.

J_MTN
08-28-2015, 07:21 AM
It's not the same mate. A dot can be mitigated much easier than a full burst hit. 800 damage over ten seconds seems like a lot if you add it all up, but you've got to realize your only taking 80 a second. I've fought countless nexi's 1v1 with rook and killed them, then just gone to grab health or have a team mate heal/shield me. So in theory 800 is a lot but it's really it's not. Burst can never be compared to dots, unless it's an MMO and you're talking about sustained DPS where you never run out of energy/power/mana/etc.

Think of it like this. If you were to go buy a car or a house, would you rather pay for all of it right then or over the course of 60 months? What seems easier for you to "Mitigate the damage" to your bank account/income?

I never said that the 900 damage was guaranteed to kill you. My point is that, mitigated or not, nexi deals 900 damage each time she uses rending claws. No matter how many health pick ups you get, you can't stop the damage from being dealt. No matter how long you wait, you still pay for the entire car. Sure, it may not kill you. But no matter what you do, the 80 DoT for ten seconds deals the same amount as a burst 800 damage. And in terms of highest damaging skills, I don't think DoTs should be left unaccounted for.

13igTyme
08-28-2015, 07:38 AM
I never said that the 900 damage was guaranteed to kill you. My point is that, mitigated or not, nexi deals 900 damage each time she uses rending claws. No matter how many health pick ups you get, you can't stop the damage from being dealt. No matter how long you wait, you still pay for the entire car. Sure, it may not kill you. But no matter what you do, the 80 DoT for ten seconds deals the same amount as a burst 800 damage. And in terms of highest damaging skills, I don't think DoTs should be left unaccounted for.

Like I had said previously it can be mitigated. You can use claws and deal 100 damage, then lets say I either kill you or run away. I could go to a khan, leatherhead, oddities, or any character that provides a a shield or resistance and that 80 damage will be lowered, sometimes by a lot. So no, it's not the same as 800 burst damage. Plus if you used it in rapid secession would the dot even stack? If it doesn't that limits it even further.

Emomiime
08-28-2015, 08:47 AM
@13igTyme I'm not sure what part you are trying to discuss. I was only pointing out that auto attack crits do great damage.
@Sirfizzy the reason I chose 325 is because of what I am going to explain better here. With my squishy champs like ace, kilowatt, brutus, etc I usually go for a health training with girded and completely ignore getting resistances. this means i have around 2k hp. In order for me to die is 13 and some change hits in order for me to die as a squishy champion. (assuming I am hit for 150 dmg each time) as a tank that already have high health, girded just removes the possibility of me using high damaging spells in order to do decent damage to them. with this change it will take 6 full 325 damage (really this wont happen unless i get hit by 6 spells) to die and bowling won't be considered useless against girded like it is now. 325 might be too high though anything lower than 275 is too low in my opinion.

13igTyme
08-28-2015, 09:21 AM
@13igTyme I'm not sure what part you are trying to discuss. I was only pointing out that auto attack crits do great damage.
@Sirfizzy the reason I chose 325 is because of what I am going to explain better here. With my squishy champs like ace, kilowatt, brutus, etc I usually go for a health training with girded and completely ignore getting resistances. this means i have around 2k hp. In order for me to die is 13 and some change hits in order for me to die as a squishy champion. (assuming I am hit for 150 dmg each time) as a tank that already have high health, girded just removes the possibility of me using high damaging spells in order to do decent damage to them. with this change it will take 6 full 325 damage (really this wont happen unless i get hit by 6 spells) to die and bowling won't be considered useless against girded like it is now. 325 might be too high though anything lower than 275 is too low in my opinion.

I thought you were trying to say your Rook, which is know to be a tanky support character, can do more damage than Ninjette. Thus meaning the basic attack is the way to go for most characters. So I pointed out that you'd be just as squishy as ninjette. I was also pointing out that my rook can do more damage with skills and still remain tanky.

I'll admit I was a quite a bit tired when I posted that and may have lost track of my intended meaning.

SirFizzyWo
08-28-2015, 09:36 AM
@Emomiime
yeah, i can see where 325 might be the best number. it just seems high compared to 150. more than double the current range almost seems unusable when the reality is that after resistances,i think most attacks will be doing less than 325 unless they ARE DEFINATELY running bowling. 250 "felt" more accurate to me, but i honestly i havent crunched the numbers to find out. not arguing with you as you are most like right. just stating.

still though, even with these changes implemented, i still just dont understand how other skills are allowed to crit 2 to 3 times back to back, but ninjette getting a guaranteed crit every 7 seconds is MORE op.

again, it wouldnt be efficient to run that as a build. 5x bowling 3 reduces her max energy to 1063, enough to cast Slip Stream (700 energy)followed by Blade Fury(400 energy) or Grapple(400 energy), but not both. yet a full crit build, modestly built (1375 max energy), can do both Blade Fury AND Grapple, and almost always land a crit. but the less effective one is deemed OP? i just dont think thats right. the only way i see to fix this entirely is to remove skill crits.

as a note: an argument could be made that her running full bowling and having a high energy regen could be enough that she could cast both of her damage skills in burst, but only one skill would recieve the crit from stealth. put this against the crit version who, with a high energy regen as well, could cast those skills twice each, crit on all of them, and wipe a team in seconds.

Ace
08-28-2015, 11:20 AM
A single gap closing ability does not compensate for her slow movement speed when she runs a crit build. What if I miss the grapple?What if I get slowed or stunned after it? Do I just spend my time getting kited by the khan that just speed buffed his whole team? Do I back off and wait for my grapple to come up? -20% movement speed is a HUGE disadvantage and it will be hard for you do anything against a competent team. Having less energy isn't bad cause you have blue workouts to make up for it, energy regen isn't uncommon for any champ. Plus her default weapon makes her first skill cost no energy, so yes you can still pull off a full combo with max bowling.

SirFizzyWo
08-28-2015, 11:37 AM
@Ace
okay now youre just discussing random happenings. thats alot of variables to add to a straight damage equation. what if the team isnt competent? what if they are dogs? what if i ate recently and im feeling kind of groggy?

im not discussing random scenarios, im discussing straight damage. anything can happen in game. yeah, you CAN miss, but in this equation im assuming all skills hit. sure, you get the full rotation, and then what? die so you can get the full rotation again? that seems silly, doesnt it?

lets just stick to the numbers since thats all we can predict fairly accurately. for the record, im running full crit (-25% move speed) and ive got to say, the chain definately makes up for it.

Ace
08-28-2015, 04:30 PM
Lol these are things that happen often and most likely will every game. Yes I get the full rotation and then I go get more energy with the plethora of ways you can regenerate energy. All I'm saying that the crit build doesn't seem too strong cause cutting a quarter of your movement speed lets you be kited easily.

13igTyme
08-28-2015, 04:45 PM
Lol these are things that happen often and most likely will every game. Yes I get the full rotation and then I go get more energy with the plethora of ways you can regenerate energy. All I'm saying that the crit build doesn't seem too strong cause cutting a quarter of your movement speed lets you be kited easily.

Some of the work outs don't even make sense. "Look out it's a Ninja!! Oh wait never mind I can just walk away from her."

SirFizzyWo
08-28-2015, 06:51 PM
@Ace
i mean, i get what youre saying, but these are operator errors youre talking about. like kiting. some players fall for it, others dont. lets just assume everyone is a competent player and doesnt fall for the old "im hitting you and then running". that chain has a huge range and if you get close to her, a 2 second stun is more than enough time for a couple of crits to kill you.

i mean we could assume everyone is an incompetent player, but then we have to assume that no one is doing any damage because they all miss with all their skills and basic attacks.

also, it doesnt matter what we "feel" is easier to deal with. they (OGScheck in particular) stated that they didnt want her critting for 1200 from stealth as that was too much damage.......but 2400 (3600 with skill efficency once its working) every once in a while out of stealth is ok? except its not every once in a while. a full crit build can produce that number regularly. im not trying to argue with them. its their game, they can run it however they please, and i wont even attempt to stop them or make them change (that would be silly on my end as i have neither the knowledge nor skill), but that also doesnt change my opinion on whether skills should crit or not and how champs are impacted by this.

@13igTyme
lol yeah i feel ya, but the same could be said for her passive not effecting her skills. "im really good with my sword from stealth, just not when i have to use one quickly (blade fury)", pssssh! some ninja you are.