Ninjette Shadow Stalker Passive (T's & O's)

[13igTyme]

I'd have to disagree. Take a look at Rending Claws. -80 Elemental Damage every second for ten seconds. That's -800! Then add on the initial 100 physical damage for a net 900 damage!

900 net damage potential at the cost of a mere 200 energy and 8 seconds of cool down.

That is 4.5 damage per energy spent. Nearly double that of any other attack in the game.

You may argue that it's just DoT. But the thing is, DoT is still damage, and it doesn't stop until all damage has been dealt. And of course, im not taking into account resistances.

It's not the same mate. A dot can be mitigated much easier than a full burst hit. 800 damage over ten seconds seems like a lot if you add it all up, but you've got to realize your only taking 80 a second. I've fought countless nexi's 1v1 with rook and killed them, then just gone to grab health or have a team mate heal/shield me. So in theory 800 is a lot but it's really it's not. Burst can never be compared to dots, unless it's an MMO and you're talking about sustained DPS where you never run out of energy/power/mana/etc.

Think of it like this. If you were to go buy a car or a house, would you rather pay for all of it right then or over the course of 60 months? What seems easier for you to "Mitigate the damage" to your bank account/income?

[Oracle]

Hello! To answer your question: yes, this only applies to Slicer. Her skills are left out of passive because a critical on blade flurry would be 1000–1200 damage out of stealth, and doing so would cause Ninjette to be unbalanced. We could definitely improve the wording on the description of Shadow Stalker to make this more clear. We apologize for any miscommunication with that. Hope this helps! Thanks, everyone, for the feedback!

[Ace]

@Ace
yes. this is exactly my point. imagine that against an enemy with 50% reduction. 1200 damage (less if they have more defense), enough to actually damage a tank WITHOUT Machine Gun. Thats the key here. She does damage to the tank and maybe another tank or a group of tanks. the casters are still safe behind the tanks, or if she gets behind the tanks, she could possibly one shot the casters. it forces players to make decisions about playstyle. Now you have to wonder if you need someone on your team with the ability to see stealthed enemies easier. it helps bring team diversity, which is one of this player bases biggest complaints.


like i said, i just cant help but wonder about the possibilities it COULD bring. maybe im wrong, maybe it would lead to unhealthy gameplay. i dont think it would, but im just one guy thinking this, and it seems im alone in this thought, so maybe im wrong.

You're not suppose to do damage like that against a tank, it's a tank for a reason. Assassins in LoL and Dota are not 1 shotting tanks or taking 40% hp off in a single ability, they aren't even worried about them. What would stop me from getting to the squishy characters and 1 shotting them if I used my stealth. Besides getting damaged, there is no counter to stealth. Don't forget her grapple increases skill effectiveness by 50%, thats an insane amount of damage that can be done in 1 or 2 skills.

[SirFizzyWo]

@13igTyme
thats exactly my point, if she cant get an auto crit on her skills, my question was are skills supposed to crit? most traditional ones dont allow skills to crit, which makes sense when thinking of balance of gameplay, but in a game where skills can ALREADY crit for 1000+ damage, her getting a guaranteed crit just doesnt seem as strong when you think of all the champs who are in fact, getting crits on skills regularly. the only way to reproduce this effect is by building crit up on her, which seems silly AS SHE COMES WITH A BUILT IN CRIT. 35% crit chance (her max) is about the same 30% crit chance (other champs average). its still about a 1 in 3 to crit with a skill. so its still 2400 damage, in an AoE, and 1/3 of the time from stealth. i just dont see the major difference.

as you said, damage from basic, cant even come close, and trying to just makes her even more fragile.

@Ace
there is a counter to stealth. there is a badge that makes it so you can see them easier and hitting them takes them out of stealth.

as for the comparison to LoL, that may be true, but the champs in LoL also have more than 3 skills and its not the (thus far in TGT) formulaic motto of 2 damage and 1 support skill (the exception BEING Ace LAWL). champs there have ults, utility weapons, and damage skills, HIGH damage skills in some cases. One bursting a champ to death is not uncommon there, which is why i said it could be so here.

@OGScheck
thank you for responding! so i take it that skills ARE meant to crit, just putting it on her passive was something yall think would be too strong....well its an odd decision to me, but if thats the law, thats the law. thanks again for responding!

[Ace]

Well if you're using that badge, you've already lost lol. The point here is that a guaranteed crit on her skills would be too strong, no champ on LoL can 1 shot in a single skill that's not an ultimate unless they are EXTREMELY far ahead, I'm talking about level 18 to level 3, which never happens. Let me give you an example. Ninjette with full bowling workouts, her flurry deals 2400 damage in a crit to someone with no resistance which doesn't happen, now let's say the enemy has 50% resistances, pretty reasonable. Flurry now deals 1200. In a game, if I were to grapple someone which gives me 50% skill effectiveness, run away while they are stunned, stealth and come back to land a flurry, that's 1800 damage in 1 skill on a character with 50% resistances. Throw in the 4x crit damage badge and you're flurry does 4800 damage to 0 resistances, and that's WITHOUT the 50% skill effectiveness from grapple. A little strong don't ya think?

[SirFizzyWo]

@Ace
as for having the badge, i disagree. i dont think people would see that badge as useless if she was able to crit from stealth using skills, which is why i said it would increase build variety and for teams, to ya know, stratagize. something like that on a tank so they can save the team from a stealthed nexi/ninjette sounds great.

as for her debuff, i believe thats on her flurry skill, and is applied after damage is dealt, so shes not getting that boost unless someone else debuffs first, which i will state is VERY likely.

what im not understanding is how her doing an automatic crit is an issue? how is a 1 in 3 crit of 2400 crit (full crit, no bowling) acceptable but a guaranteed 4800 crit(full bowling, no crit accept for a passive) isnt? a crit build version of her seems way more OP than a version of her where she gets 1 crit every 7 seconds (assuming she has energy). both of those numbers bring one shot potential. so why is one ok, but the other not?

the answer, i think, is that neither are ok. again, the devs spoke, so im kind of done with it, i just think its silly to say its ok for skills to crit and do massive damage, but its not ok for a champ whos specialty is crits, to not get one on her skills. all it does is make a champ that already is fragile, do less damage. but thats just T's & O's

DIDYOUSEEWHATIDIDTHER!?

[Ace]

as for her debuff, i believe thats on her flurry skill, and is applied after damage is dealt, so shes not getting that boost unless someone else debuffs first, which i will state is VERY likely.

what im not understanding is how her doing an automatic crit is an issue? how is a 1 in 3 crit of 2400 crit (full crit, no bowling) acceptable but a guaranteed 4800 crit(full bowling, no crit accept for a passive) isnt? a crit build version of her seems way more OP than a version of her where she gets 1 crit every 7 seconds (assuming she has energy). both of those numbers bring one shot potential. so why is one ok, but the other not?

I never said anything about her debuff. I was talking about her grapple which is a stun and 50% skill effectiveness for 5 secs.


One build completely ****s on your movement to where you can't even catch up to slowed enemies, and the other takes your energy pooldown which means nothing when you run energy regen which isn't uncommon. If a guaranteed crit on an ability that can do up to 9600 damage when paired with grapple or any other skill effectiveness buff doesn't seem strong to you, then I just don't know what to tell ya man.

[Emomiime]

Alright time for me to post yay! First off @13igTyme crit on basic attacks hurt and can kill. Example? I have a crit based rook. Due to her having decent crit (5% starting off i think?) and a crit weapon this is viable. I currently have a 23.5% crit chance. Due to my stun allowing me to hit the target freely I have a easy time landing hits and possible crits. On low resistance champions I can hit 5-600s and on tanky champs like khan 200-350. This allows me to do damage equal to abilities with autos thus making basic attacks strong enough to kill. I will have to side with skill crits would be too powerful. Again imagine on rook with my 23.5% crit chance with my dark bolts. If magically both were to crit i would effectively do 2400 damage (1200 damage each bolt do to Critical power) that cannot be blocked by girded. Ouch... thats not even talking about abilities that are aoe like platimus that can hit any and all targets within the radius. . This is also without the multiplier of bowling. Imagine ninjette with 100% spell damage doing 4.8k damage that cannot be blocked by girded.....(600x2= 1200. 1200x4=4.8k(Critical power) extremely un healthy for the game in general. However, what is also un healthy is the reduction of girded.

With resistances any attack or ability that hits 190-300 damage is quite healthy and acceptable. This allows tanks to be able to die and for squishys to feel umm squishy.I get this number based on the amount of health that people usually have while building defense/girded health builds. Anything below is bad damage anything above is super bursty and needs to be situational for a healthy game environment. Again girded glaring weakness is crits but spell crits doing way to much damage is ridiculous especially if Ninjette could crit with spells after every stealth. So a slight fix needs to be done with girded. So lets take ninjettes ability for example and see how it works against average people in order to find a healthy place for girded to be. 50% resistance I believe is fair guide to start with. 600= 300 damage now which is great reliable damage and does a debuff. I do think 325 dmg with girded is a healthy place for it to be so people with bowling don't get screwed but instead get their maximum potential damage against everyone.

[SirFizzyWo]

@Ace
my apologies for the debuff/skill effectiveness mix up. that was all me. i forgot it has that buff on the grapple until a bit ago. also earlier my crit percents were way off. she caps at 30%, not 35% i dont know why i thought that it gave +5% per workout lol.

however, i also think you misunderstand. i AM saying that its strong. VERY strong. what i AM saying is that it seems unfair to restrict one, but not the other. in the case of her running a crit build, she has a grapple. one with a far enough range that she doesnt need to catch up (INB4: i said in an earlier post i didnt think she could catch up, even with her chain. i now know she CAN catch up, using her chain. that range is really far).

another thing i want to say is that honestly, i think that if her passive did effect her skills, it would still be less effective to build her towards bowling than crit, since lowering her energy cap really hurts her. im not so adamant about this working because i want to spec her this way, i just think its unfair to make her so weak without some sort of positive. as it stands right now, shes just squishy for the sake of squishyness.

Emomiime brings up a strong point in that the real culprit here is probably girded. i might not be saying its unfair if girded had a slightly higher damage cap. 325 seems reasonable, but i would probably lower it to 250, as honestly this seems like a better baseline that allows it to still be powerful/useful, and still allows us to chip away at tanks, though 325 might be the more reasonable number.

[13igTyme]

Alright time for me to post yay! First off @13igTyme crit on basic attacks hurt and can kill. Example? I have a crit based rook. Due to her having decent crit (5% starting off i think?) and a crit weapon this is viable. I currently have a 23.5% crit chance. Due to my stun allowing me to hit the target freely I have a easy time landing hits and possible crits. On low resistance champions I can hit 5-600s and on tanky champs like khan 200-350. This allows me to do damage equal to abilities with autos thus making basic attacks strong enough to kill. I will have to side with skill crits would be too powerful. Again imagine on rook with my 23.5% crit chance with my dark bolts. If magically both were to crit i would effectively do 2400 damage (1200 damage each bolt do to Critical power) that cannot be blocked by girded. Ouch... thats not even talking about abilities that are aoe like platimus that can hit any and all targets within the radius. . This is also without the multiplier of bowling. Imagine ninjette with 100% spell damage doing 4.8k damage that cannot be blocked by girded.....(600x2= 1200. 1200x4=4.8k(Critical power) extremely un healthy for the game in general. However, what is also un healthy is the reduction of girded.

With resistances any attack or ability that hits 190-300 damage is quite healthy and acceptable. This allows tanks to be able to die and for squishys to feel umm squishy.I get this number based on the amount of health that people usually have while building defense/girded health builds. Anything below is bad damage anything above is super bursty and needs to be situational for a healthy game environment. Again girded glaring weakness is crits but spell crits doing way to much damage is ridiculous especially if Ninjette could crit with spells after every stealth. So a slight fix needs to be done with girded. So lets take ninjettes ability for example and see how it works against average people in order to find a healthy place for girded to be. 50% resistance I believe is fair guide to start with. 600= 300 damage now which is great reliable damage and does a debuff. I do think 325 dmg with girded is a healthy place for it to be so people with bowling don't get screwed but instead get their maximum potential damage against everyone.

That's fine but you'd be glass. I've played against high Rate of Fire Rooks/ Crit Rooks/ Stun rooks/ etc. I've never played anyone with my build for rook. This is what happens when I play a Rate or fire Rook's or Crit Rook's:Teleport stun them(Optional), use basic attack to lower defense, cast bolt 800-1000 damage, use basic attack one or twice to kill. The entire fight last 3-5 seconds.