Ninjette Shadow Stalker Passive (T's & O's)

[J_MTN]

It's not the same mate. A dot can be mitigated much easier than a full burst hit. 800 damage over ten seconds seems like a lot if you add it all up, but you've got to realize your only taking 80 a second. I've fought countless nexi's 1v1 with rook and killed them, then just gone to grab health or have a team mate heal/shield me. So in theory 800 is a lot but it's really it's not. Burst can never be compared to dots, unless it's an MMO and you're talking about sustained DPS where you never run out of energy/power/mana/etc.

Think of it like this. If you were to go buy a car or a house, would you rather pay for all of it right then or over the course of 60 months? What seems easier for you to "Mitigate the damage" to your bank account/income?

I never said that the 900 damage was guaranteed to kill you. My point is that, mitigated or not, nexi deals 900 damage each time she uses rending claws. No matter how many health pick ups you get, you can't stop the damage from being dealt. No matter how long you wait, you still pay for the entire car. Sure, it may not kill you. But no matter what you do, the 80 DoT for ten seconds deals the same amount as a burst 800 damage. And in terms of highest damaging skills, I don't think DoTs should be left unaccounted for.

[13igTyme]

I never said that the 900 damage was guaranteed to kill you. My point is that, mitigated or not, nexi deals 900 damage each time she uses rending claws. No matter how many health pick ups you get, you can't stop the damage from being dealt. No matter how long you wait, you still pay for the entire car. Sure, it may not kill you. But no matter what you do, the 80 DoT for ten seconds deals the same amount as a burst 800 damage. And in terms of highest damaging skills, I don't think DoTs should be left unaccounted for.

Like I had said previously it can be mitigated. You can use claws and deal 100 damage, then lets say I either kill you or run away. I could go to a khan, leatherhead, oddities, or any character that provides a a shield or resistance and that 80 damage will be lowered, sometimes by a lot. So no, it's not the same as 800 burst damage. Plus if you used it in rapid secession would the dot even stack? If it doesn't that limits it even further.

[Emomiime]

@13igTyme I'm not sure what part you are trying to discuss. I was only pointing out that auto attack crits do great damage.
@Sirfizzy the reason I chose 325 is because of what I am going to explain better here. With my squishy champs like ace, kilowatt, brutus, etc I usually go for a health training with girded and completely ignore getting resistances. this means i have around 2k hp. In order for me to die is 13 and some change hits in order for me to die as a squishy champion. (assuming I am hit for 150 dmg each time) as a tank that already have high health, girded just removes the possibility of me using high damaging spells in order to do decent damage to them. with this change it will take 6 full 325 damage (really this wont happen unless i get hit by 6 spells) to die and bowling won't be considered useless against girded like it is now. 325 might be too high though anything lower than 275 is too low in my opinion.

[13igTyme]

@13igTyme I'm not sure what part you are trying to discuss. I was only pointing out that auto attack crits do great damage.
@Sirfizzy the reason I chose 325 is because of what I am going to explain better here. With my squishy champs like ace, kilowatt, brutus, etc I usually go for a health training with girded and completely ignore getting resistances. this means i have around 2k hp. In order for me to die is 13 and some change hits in order for me to die as a squishy champion. (assuming I am hit for 150 dmg each time) as a tank that already have high health, girded just removes the possibility of me using high damaging spells in order to do decent damage to them. with this change it will take 6 full 325 damage (really this wont happen unless i get hit by 6 spells) to die and bowling won't be considered useless against girded like it is now. 325 might be too high though anything lower than 275 is too low in my opinion.

I thought you were trying to say your Rook, which is know to be a tanky support character, can do more damage than Ninjette. Thus meaning the basic attack is the way to go for most characters. So I pointed out that you'd be just as squishy as ninjette. I was also pointing out that my rook can do more damage with skills and still remain tanky.

I'll admit I was a quite a bit tired when I posted that and may have lost track of my intended meaning.

[SirFizzyWo]

@Emomiime
yeah, i can see where 325 might be the best number. it just seems high compared to 150. more than double the current range almost seems unusable when the reality is that after resistances,i think most attacks will be doing less than 325 unless they ARE DEFINATELY running bowling. 250 "felt" more accurate to me, but i honestly i havent crunched the numbers to find out. not arguing with you as you are most like right. just stating.

still though, even with these changes implemented, i still just dont understand how other skills are allowed to crit 2 to 3 times back to back, but ninjette getting a guaranteed crit every 7 seconds is MORE op.

again, it wouldnt be efficient to run that as a build. 5x bowling 3 reduces her max energy to 1063, enough to cast Slip Stream (700 energy)followed by Blade Fury(400 energy) or Grapple(400 energy), but not both. yet a full crit build, modestly built (1375 max energy), can do both Blade Fury AND Grapple, and almost always land a crit. but the less effective one is deemed OP? i just dont think thats right. the only way i see to fix this entirely is to remove skill crits.

as a note: an argument could be made that her running full bowling and having a high energy regen could be enough that she could cast both of her damage skills in burst, but only one skill would recieve the crit from stealth. put this against the crit version who, with a high energy regen as well, could cast those skills twice each, crit on all of them, and wipe a team in seconds.

[Ace]

A single gap closing ability does not compensate for her slow movement speed when she runs a crit build. What if I miss the grapple?What if I get slowed or stunned after it? Do I just spend my time getting kited by the khan that just speed buffed his whole team? Do I back off and wait for my grapple to come up? -20% movement speed is a HUGE disadvantage and it will be hard for you do anything against a competent team. Having less energy isn't bad cause you have blue workouts to make up for it, energy regen isn't uncommon for any champ. Plus her default weapon makes her first skill cost no energy, so yes you can still pull off a full combo with max bowling.

[SirFizzyWo]

@Ace
okay now youre just discussing random happenings. thats alot of variables to add to a straight damage equation. what if the team isnt competent? what if they are dogs? what if i ate recently and im feeling kind of groggy?

im not discussing random scenarios, im discussing straight damage. anything can happen in game. yeah, you CAN miss, but in this equation im assuming all skills hit. sure, you get the full rotation, and then what? die so you can get the full rotation again? that seems silly, doesnt it?

lets just stick to the numbers since thats all we can predict fairly accurately. for the record, im running full crit (-25% move speed) and ive got to say, the chain definately makes up for it.

[Ace]

Lol these are things that happen often and most likely will every game. Yes I get the full rotation and then I go get more energy with the plethora of ways you can regenerate energy. All I'm saying that the crit build doesn't seem too strong cause cutting a quarter of your movement speed lets you be kited easily.

[13igTyme]

Lol these are things that happen often and most likely will every game. Yes I get the full rotation and then I go get more energy with the plethora of ways you can regenerate energy. All I'm saying that the crit build doesn't seem too strong cause cutting a quarter of your movement speed lets you be kited easily.

Some of the work outs don't even make sense. "Look out it's a Ninja!! Oh wait never mind I can just walk away from her."

[SirFizzyWo]

@Ace
i mean, i get what youre saying, but these are operator errors youre talking about. like kiting. some players fall for it, others dont. lets just assume everyone is a competent player and doesnt fall for the old "im hitting you and then running". that chain has a huge range and if you get close to her, a 2 second stun is more than enough time for a couple of crits to kill you.

i mean we could assume everyone is an incompetent player, but then we have to assume that no one is doing any damage because they all miss with all their skills and basic attacks.

also, it doesnt matter what we "feel" is easier to deal with. they (OGScheck in particular) stated that they didnt want her critting for 1200 from stealth as that was too much damage.......but 2400 (3600 with skill efficency once its working) every once in a while out of stealth is ok? except its not every once in a while. a full crit build can produce that number regularly. im not trying to argue with them. its their game, they can run it however they please, and i wont even attempt to stop them or make them change (that would be silly on my end as i have neither the knowledge nor skill), but that also doesnt change my opinion on whether skills should crit or not and how champs are impacted by this.

@13igTyme
lol yeah i feel ya, but the same could be said for her passive not effecting her skills. "im really good with my sword from stealth, just not when i have to use one quickly (blade fury)", pssssh! some ninja you are.